#9 By: Rey Bango, March 20th, 2013 09:58
Have to agree with you. @trek you're an Ember.js team member if I recall and from my experience on the jQuery project (I was the Developer Relations lead), the best way to build up an effort is to be patient, even with people that may not communicate in the nicest way. Chances are that if you point them in the right direction, you'll go a long way to winning them in the end. Simply dismissing them based on the tone of their post just makes the situation worse, which eventually leads to worse situations.
#10 By: Rey Bango, March 20th, 2013 10:01
Andrew, check out my first post on getting into Ember here:
I'm going to be writing a multi-part series on getting up to speed on Ember along with an online course.
Don't give up just yet. Ember is still a new effort and the team is learning everyday how to help and work with the community.
#11 By: strcrzy, March 20th, 2013 10:17
The tone of this topic is not in line with the civil level of discourse I'd like to maintain here, so I cannot respond.
Wow, what a completely frivolous and insulting lack of a response. News flash: the "tone of this topic" that you're picking up on is the result of the frustration forced upon him by your project's shoddy documentation (and by shoddy, I mean incomplete, inconsistent, and sometimes simply factually inaccurate) not meeting the expectations set by your marketing copy. Instead of taking responsibility for his frustration as "documentation czar", or addressing any of the valid criticisms he raised, (or, you know actually trying to resolve his issues) you chose to nit pick about his "tone", alienating both him and anyone else who was considering getting started with ember. Well played.
#12 By: Ben Sterrett, March 20th, 2013 10:20
Interestingly enough, 4 days ago..
#13 By: Faruzzy, March 20th, 2013 10:22
This exactly the steps I went trough! exactly the same, and just dropped it! Seriously the documentation is seriously lacking!
#14 By: Toran Billups, March 20th, 2013 10:23
#15 By: Peter Wagenet, March 20th, 2013 10:25
This is the response I posted on the Hacker News thread about this forum post.
NOTE: This is specifically in response to people upset over @trek's response. There have been many other helpful responses to the OP in this thread.
Knowing @trek, I think his frustration here is in large part with himself. He cares very deeply about giving users a good experience with Ember and knows that we aren't achieving that as well as we'd like. We've been planning and working on an improved Getting Started story for a while now but, because all of us on the Core Team are very busy with our day jobs, it's been slower going that we would have liked.
To have more people point out your shortcomings when you're already well aware of them is very frustrating. I think this is what we're seeing in Trek's response. Now that doesn't mean that I think his response is helpful - it's not. But I do want it to be clear that we do care about these issues and sometimes maybe too much.
When our new Getting Started Guide is finally released, I promise that we will do our best to address all of the different comments and complaints we receive from our users.
#16 By: xmlblog, March 20th, 2013 10:35
Have you read through the Guides linked from the top of the page? I ask because they cover some of the questions you raise. I was also able to find this starter-kit on Github which includes a barebones index.html that includes all the right libraries: https://github.com/emberjs/starter-kit
#17 By: Roberto Rivera, March 20th, 2013 10:37
Obviously, there is a problem with the homepage of Ember.
A quick comparaison with sites like angular.js, knockout.js and even backbone.js, give us a hint that a lot of people will have a hard time to figure out basic stuff, like dependencies.
A quick fix would be to link to un up-to-date starter kit (sadly, the latest one include an old version of Ember), mention all the dependencies of the framework (like backbone.js does) and a list of up-to-date resources/tutorials.
#18 By: Yehuda Katz, March 20th, 2013 10:40
I replied to this on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5407425
I totally empathize with @delvarworld and hope he gives us another look once we've improve the getting started experience some more.
Things we are actively working on for 1.0:
- A Getting Started Guide with live examples that walks the user through building a new application from scratch ( @trek is working on this).
- Continuing to improve our guides to talk through areas that might be confusing for new developers, like the naming conventions we use in Ember.
- Ember 1.0 will feature the return of the Starter Kit, which directly addresses the concerns by the OP. We removed it temporarily to bring it up to date with the most recent idioms, but it will be coming back very soon.
This was a hard decision that sucked, but leaving around an out of date starter kit seemed worse than removing it.
#21 By: Ofer Nave, March 20th, 2013 11:16
is the result of the frustration forced upon him by your project's
Shameless hyperbole. No one "forces" anyone to use a free software product or read it's documentation. I'm amazed that you're using victim language to frame the experience of a person who merely discovered that Ember.js is a pre-1.0 project that hasn't polished up the packaging yet.
I, too, experienced great frustration when I first started, and ended up abandoning my blog EmberNoob (at least for now), partially because it was too difficult to figure out and keep up with changes. The difference between me and others bitching in this thread is:
1) I realize that it's mostly a matter of time and patience.
They're in the final cleanup right before a 1.0 release. Now's exactly the silliest time to be bitching. And Trek is the silliest person to direct your anger at. His guide was the best in it's class at the time, meaning he can be most credited with attempting to solve the very problem you're bitching at him for during that period. He only removed it because it was obsolete relative to the unusually rapid pace of changes following the publication of the guide, over which he doesn't have primary control.
#22 By: mrcwinn, March 20th, 2013 11:23
I absolutely believe it is the responsibility of the Ember team - with support from us developers on this board and StackOverflow - to make Ember as simple as possible. But certainly a dependency of jQuery and the need to include it before Ember loads is not too much to ask. Stick with it!
#23 By: stevenwadejr, March 20th, 2013 11:28
I totally get the frustration here. I started using Ember when they were still SproutCore 2.0. I got used to the API then and as Ember matured and the API changed, of course I was frustrated. But you know what, with any new language, library, framework, whatever, there will be growing pains for everyone.
These guys have done an amazing job building something extremely powerful and we have yet to even scratch the surface of what is possible with Ember. It'll take time on their parts to keep the project progressing, and it'll take time on your part to learn it.
Would I prefer that there be a bunch of awesome example uses to help me along? Yes. That day will come, Ember is still a baby. For now, I am ok using their docs, SO, and Google to get me through.
If you're really stuck, why not utilize this board to post actual constructive questions for specific questions instead of just slamming these guys.
Just remember, these guys didn't have to build Ember. They don't have to keep improving it. They don't have to do anything but pay taxes and die. So next time you want to stone someone who has built something because they know the community would benefit from it, think twice.
Great job Ember Team! Thank you for all of your hard work!
#24 By: Ofer Nave, March 20th, 2013 11:34
They don't have to do anything but pay taxes and die.
For now. I'm working on the first one. I hear others are working on the second.
#25 By: mikegrassotti, March 20th, 2013 12:15
@gortok Thx for reaching out, drafting an updated answer now. Had no idea my little SO answer was so highly ranked
#26 By: Matt, March 20th, 2013 12:50
I definitely wouldn't argue that the Ember documentation is amazing, but if you follow the basic guide you'll get an app running very quickly. The home page isn't meant to be your guide to starting a new app.
#27 By: Ben W , March 20th, 2013 13:25
"The tone of this topic is not in line with the civil level of discourse I'd like to maintain here, so I cannot respond."
And yet you did respond, except instead of responding helpfully, recognizing the frustration the poster feels, you responded passive-aggressively, getting in a snit because the poster wasn't adequately civil.
Civility is a false virtue in the first place, but if you think it's a real virtue, you should either not have responded, or not have responded haughtily.
#28 By: JohnHaugeland, March 20th, 2013 13:46
Being honest, I find this dismissive response far more inappropriate than the post it's replying to.
#29 By: Peter Wagenet, March 20th, 2013 14:21
I think this is best summed up by @wycats' earlier post in this thread where he said that we are actively working on trying to address @delvarworld's concerns. Admittedly, @trek's response was less than helpful here. I think we're all in ultimate agreement that there are some significant shortcomings to the Ember on-boarding process. We certainly do want to change this.
That said, we also do want to maintain productive, civil discourse here. I understand that the @delvarworld wasn't intending to be rude, he was just expressing his frustration over what is indeed a frustrating situation. I don't think there's too much more constructive to be said on this topic other than to reiterate that the Core Team recognizes @delvarworld's concerns and is actively trying to address them.
If there are any other specific issues that we were not able to address adequately in this thread, please do start a new one. I don't intend to shut down discussion over all, but I feel that this specific thread is no longer productive. @delvarworld, I hope you accept our apologies for the current state of things and the less than welcoming behavior you received.
#30 By: Peter Wagenet, March 20th, 2013 14:21
This topic is now archived. It is frozen and cannot be changed in any way.